The conclusion on why boxers can pick a part a martial artisit?

now on my first 2 posts i dont think people actualy get the message on what im trying to say





i am a martial artist, and i used to do boxing. im sayinjg that styles that consider themselves as martial just because they do some katas and chreographed dance moves they think they can beat anyone





im not saying forms aernt good, they are as they help with sparing and the tactics u recive but most karate schools, do katas but no sparring so whats the point! in even learing,





im not disrespecting the japanese martial arts,


i think they are great, but karate just puts it down,


styles like shotokan, gojo ryu, wado ryu.


kuokushin is good.





im not being a hypocrite, as even the chinese martial arts need to get thire act together, as there are some realy crap styles out there.





the reason i chose the boxer is that they are very fast with thire hands and im sure it can beat those crapy forms of karate





thanks for awnsering the 3 questions i posted

The conclusion on why boxers can pick a part a martial artisit?
You write so unintelligibly I couldn't understand any of your three questions.
Reply:I'm not sure what your question is but It sounds like your saying boxers are better fighters than martial artists. But isn't a boxer a better fighter if he is also trained in the martial arts? My point is that the best fighters know many styles . If a boxer doesn't know anything except boxing he is in big trouble once he gets taken to the ground. All his boxing skill is useless when he's on his back. He had better know at least some basic wrestling or submission holds. Most fighters start on there feet and a skilled boxer is going to do pretty good as long as he is standing but more often than not an opponent can smother those punches and force that boxer to the ground. I do agree with you that katas ere for show only and most of that shown in a kata would be ineffective in a real fight.
Reply:The thing is that boxers train to, well, box. It's a practical application intensive fighting art. In fact, if memory serves, I believe that Muhammad Ali took on and beat a kickboxer in an exhibition bout, and quite frankly when I hear UFC guys say that they would all destroy a straight boxer I have to scoff a bit, especially if you dropped a Frazier/Foreman (70s Foreman)/or Larry Holmes in there with the 4 oz gloves.


Secondly, about katas, or forms: Many kata or forms in Chinese arts (and in Japanese arts) are a method to teach applications or combinations. The relationship is similar between physics and engineering: one is heavier on theory than other, and one is rooted more in using principles of science to do things in the real world. The things about katas is that they are open ended of sorts, in that each one's somewhat vague motions can be interpereted into something totally different, and incredibly effective as well. Further, "the chinese arts need to get their act together," well.......the thing is they have been taught that way for a loooong time, and are known to be effective (Two words: Shaolin Temple) in both pedagogy and in increasing coordination, and also encouraging a creative and interperetive mindset when it comes to studying an art. Things are still done that way, in essence, because it works, just as western boxing and wrestling are taught because they work, but you may not see a sense of instant gratification in it, so I think that may be a factor.
Reply:Any fighting full contact is the key since it teaches a general common sense and understanding of bodies to move in the right way.





Which is why fencing masters of the medieval period as funny as it sounds required their students to do wrestling at the same time.





They even say in their books a good basis in wrestling or boxing is a great basis for a student of the sword.





The problem with 99% of martial arts is they are no longer moving properly.





That is where their problems start right there and why they mostly get their *** kicked on the street fighting drunk bums who just swing like hell. I have seen it all my life.
Reply:You are pointing out a difference in TRAINING not in styles.


Boxers do HARD sparring, and a boxer who has been hit will have an advantage over a martial artist who has NOT been hit.


But - a martial artist who trains hard sparring (like kyokushin knock down or mma or such) and HAS been hit hard will equalize THAT factor, and then the additional skills on the ground will come into play.





I was watching my copy of UFC-2 (remember? when NO ONE's art was "mixed"?) and I saw a fight with Fred Ettish - very skilled and polished karate school owner. He took the correct stance. He flicked his kicks out perfectly. And the first punch he got hit with, he crumpled - because it was obvious he had never done hard sparring.





Conversely, Royce ate up all the kickboxers, b/c they were useless on the ground.
Reply:Boxing has an advantage over other martial arts, that is when you train boxing, your physical aspect is one of the most important thing. Just see all the professional boxers, they are big and muscular. Another advantage is because you only train your fists so that it becomes very focused on it and boxing spars A LOT. However if you fight an experienced Karate guy, he can defeat you by using sweeps, takedowns, etc that is not practiced in boxing. But it's 100% for sure you would defeat anyone training in a Karate McDojo ( Martial arts school where the instructor teaches for lots of $$$, usually there are no sparring in this school just plain forms and board breaking). Just go to Japan, challenge some Karatekas and see how you think, since in Asia there are only few McDojos unlike in America.
Reply:I understand your point, but it's kind of a spurious question.


Boxers usually spend a lot more time training conditioning than do most martial artists. This has to do with a lot of people who think all they need to do is learn the correct 'technique' and that they will then be set for life. Technique without practice is nothing, of course.


Most martial artists today don't spend that much time on physical conditioning and can spend a few hours a week on training at best. So, of course, they're at a disadvantage against a boxer who makes it his full-time job. But against an amateur boxer who may not have that much combat experience either, that wouldn't necessarily the case.


If you really wanted to compare martial arts in this way, the boxer would have to be compared with the samurai of old, who took their whole training just as seriously and were, in effect professionals.


I don't see this as a question of boxing vs martial arts at all. It's just a question of how much dedication and effort people put in it. Boxing training happens to be more involved most of the time. But get one of those guys that spends five days a week at the dojo and it would be another matter.
Reply:I believe what your experiencing is the large amount of McDojoe's to real Martial Arts schools. And you must remember most people who box are into the idea of winning by getting the best of their opponent or a KO. Many student of martial arts schools are there just there for the purpose of self development. This doesn't mean that the serious martial arts student isn't formidable Just that there are not the majority of students, and that is too bad.


Don't give up your training. I was talking to one of our best students last night who is a boxer and is cross training. He said "it is helping his boxing in a huge way"
Reply:"now on my first 2 posts i dont think people actualy get the message on what im trying to say"





actually it sounds like you didn't get the point, its actually very plain and simple: it has nothing to do with style, it has to do with learning application, which means training realistically.





some arts train realistically but under an incomplete ruleset (boxing, muai thai, judo) and some arts train under a completely unrealistic rule set so that even training with resistance doesn't make it good training (point sparring- usually TKD).





doing katas is a waste of time (except in beginning weapons training). Doing isolated movements to learn power generation and proper structure and form (the equivalent of shadow-boxing in boxing) is of high value.





"i am a martial artist, and i used to do boxing. im sayinjg that styles that consider themselves as martial just because they do some katas and chreographed dance moves they think they can beat anyone"





I used to do boxing as well, that is what gives me a realistic approach to what a person really coming at you with hand skills would look like.





"im not saying forms aernt good, they are as they help with sparing and the tactics u recive but most karate schools, do katas but no sparring so whats the point! in even learing,"





I'm saying they are not (see above) except in certain forms of weapon training where learning to strike properly is also dependant on learning to move with your weapon and get used to what is otherwise a very unnatural and awkward feeling.





"im not disrespecting the japanese martial arts,


i think they are great, but karate just puts it down,


styles like shotokan, gojo ryu, wado ryu.


kuokushin is good."





again, you missed the point, it isn't about "karate" or "shotokan". it is about how realistically you train. some arts are more likely to train realistically than others and have a reputation for bieng so.





"im not being a hypocrite, as even the chinese martial arts need to get thire act together, as there are some realy crap styles out there."





yes, yes they do, and I dont' think it is the crap style, just crap teachers and crap schools that don't train realistically. you think tai chi was originally intended to be for old geezers to waste an afternoon in the park between episodes of golden girls?





I picked up a few things from someone who really knows how to apply tai chi and what I learned helped me improve my throws and bieng able to "move" another person.from what I've seen most teachers only teach the "soft" component of tai chi, not how to apply it because they don't know. this was all done with full resistance and in one case I was even able to apply it in cross-training (I don't throw much).





"the reason i chose the boxer is that they are very fast with thire hands and im sure it can beat those crapy forms of karate"





yes, a boxer CAN be very fast with thier hands, however, again it is more likely than not the fact that they have trained realistically while the karateka probably has not (although karate is more likely to than the bad three- aikido, tkd and CMA- styles that are difficult to find realistic training because they are oversaturated with crappy schools).





do you really think that a person from a "cardio boxing" class (the equvalent of tae bo) is training realistically and can apply that to real fighting? hell no.





"thanks for awnsering the 3 questions i posted"





no problem. I really hope you realize that it is not so much the style but resistance training and realistic training that makes the difference.





and by resistance I don't mean chi sau or push hands. If thats all you are doing, you are missing the point.
Reply:This issue was solved back in 1968 when Aaron Banks held his mixed martial arts exhibition in Madison Square Garden where he pitted boxers against Judoka; Karateka against Judoka; Karateka against boxers; etc. etc.





It was discovered that it was the skill of the participant and not the style which resulted in victory. Thus a mediocre boxer would lose to a good Judo player and a mediocre Judo player would lose to a good boxer and so on and so forth.





Yet it is my opinon that some martial art styles are inferior to others regardless of the practitioner (but I will not mention these).





I have always had the highest regard for Japanese Jiu-Jitsu and Chinese Kung fu; they are very deadly and effective. While boxing is very good, it doesn't teach defense against weapons, or weapons usage, or defense against multiple attacks. This is one reason why it takes a very long time to become proficient in the Asian martial arts.
Reply:put in a muay thai boxer and a boxer in a ring. no rules. see who's the more dimensional fighter- and who's just more sick in the head and can do the most fatal damage.
Reply:Someone touched on the "rules" aspect but I'd like to expand further. Regardless of matchup, there are always rules of behavior. What's an appropriate target and what isn't. A number of martial arts, including Kenpo, teach that everything is an acceptable target: eyes, throat, ears, groin, knees, etc. An aggressor will quickly lose interest in the fight if he's blind, can't breath or his knee has been kicked out. My point is that when evaluating effectiveness of a style, you must consider that imposing rules may change the essential character of the style. On the street, there's no such thing as fighting dirty, only surviving and being the least hurt.
Reply:This is a redundant question. And you seem very narrow minded in your view of martial arts. Maybe its because you haven't trained in other styles or your failure to investigate to find out the differences between them. When you say " a martial artist" do you mean any martial artist? Or are you picking on one particular art? Because I've personally seen Muay thai guys destroy pure boxers. You need to properly format your question and be specific as to what you really want to know. You questions are very vague and the answers vary too much to get to the point of what your looking for.
Reply:A good jab is hard to defend and some boxes jab like a mule ... that is why
Reply:No. Jui Jitsu more better then boxing. I understand your point, a boxer is actually training to fight where as a lot of martial arts they do not actually go at it all the time like a boxer. But I thought the point of a lot of martial arts is to defend yourself and not really to beat people up. Personally I would take a boxer fighting in a gym everyday over a guy doing karate but not really sparring all the time, but i would also easily take a Muay Thai fighter over that boxer or grappler like submission grappling like jui jitsu over both.